Marketing hype

[gixer]

Just been reading another less than glowing review of the Dirigo

I keep reading in the reviews that experienced some problems words to the effect of "it's a good 3 season tent but not designed to take a battering".

Got me to thinking, how different would peoples opinions be if HMG hadn't gone the marketing hype route

If the tent was just released as Zpacks, TarptTent, MLD, DCF thruhike competitor, rather than sponsored "reviewers" and marketing hype blabbing on about it's "bomber" construction i think peoples expectations would have been different

You wouldn't want to take a Duplex out in the conditions shown in the BPL test on youtube, even if you did, if it failed it's unlikely anyone would kick up a fuss

Seems to me that because the BS and hype was so strong, people seem to more of the mind that they're going to prove HMG wrong, so they're pushing the tent past it's capabilities and the tent is bringing a feather duster to a gun fight at that sort of level


So i'm of the opinion that by hyping up their product they've done more harm than good
If they'd just have released it as a competitor to other light weight DCF tents i think expectations would have been more realistic and they'd have had better reviews, which would have served them better PR wise in the long term

I can see why companies try to hype their products, if i ran a company with employees to pay i'd want to try and edge my bets and get a rung up the ladder compared to my competitors
But these are not toasters, they're selling products that if failure occurs at the wrong time and place or in the wrong conditions could be life threatening

This is compounded by such a poor measuring system (3 season, 4 season etc) that it's pretty much pointless
Winter in Scotland is very different to winter in Athens, or more relevant in this case the West coat of the US

Maybe reviewers should set up some type of scale for conditions
Say 1 to 5
5 being a high level camp on serious mountains

Of course very very few tents would ever be tested at that level, but the reviewer would state something like "tested to #3 conditions tent was comfortable"

Thoughts?



Cheers
Mark

 

[Henry]

I think those are all very sensible points Mark.

Getting companies to agree to a universal assessment scale... well they’ve done it with sleeping bags, sleeping mats (R ratings at least), so in theory it should be possible for some sort of scale. I suppose the difference is that there are so many potential variables in causing a shelter to fail compared to a sleeping bag, would these assessments be helpful in real life?

I tend to go on people’s experiences of a shelter personally. Not very helpful with a new design...

 

[Fair Weather Camper]

I've not surveyed the stat's Gix.
So this is merely conjecture.

But I suspect that more lives have been lost to faulty toasters.

Than to substandard shelters.

As the song goes.

"Don't believe the hype"

 

[Robin]

Everything is hyped these days. Just look at the news.

“It’s never as good as it seems and it’s never as bad as it seems” is a good aphorism.

 

[Diddi]

I think those are all very sensible points Mark.

Getting companies to agree to a universal assessment scale... well they’ve done it with sleeping bags, sleeping mats (R ratings at least), so in theory it should be possible for some sort of scale. I suppose the difference is that there are so many potential variables in causing a shelter to fail compared to a sleeping bag, would these assessments be helpful in real life?

I tend to go on people’s experiences of a shelter personally. Not very helpful with a new design...

What Henry said especially about sleeping bags...

 

[WilliamC]

Good points, @gixer. I'm aware that the Dirigo isn't going to satisfy the needs of many but it seems to have prompted a rather vitriolic response among some commentators. For example, the fact that the doors open over the inner has been much derided as a design fault: a valid point, but I checked out some reviews and comments on the MLD Solomid and TT Rainbow, both tents with the same weakness, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), but it gets no mention at all in the reviews and comments.
I suspect that you are right about the hype - it rather put me off too. Perhaps HMG made too much of its badassness; while I think it's going to compare favourably to a Duplex in the wind it is only a 3 season tent and to me that means not for deep or blowing snow. (Incidentally, the Aeon is described as a 3+ season tent; it would be interesting to see that tested in similar conditions.) And the bloggers reviews seemed to be reading too much from the same script.
I think another reason for the negative reaction is the price (though for 2-person use with bug protection, it's less than a Duomid in DCF.)
As to the review you linked to, I saw it this morning but haven't had time to read it all. What surprised me was that he did exactly what Ryan Jordan did (used it in deep snow) and got the same result (problems with the grommets). Maybe he hadn't seen Ryan's video?

As an aside, I often see tents referred to as 3, 4 or 5 season; are any tents described as 1 season?

 

[el manana]

I don't buy your argument @gixer ...I don't see any mass buying of a tent purely on the strength of some internet posts...

 

[craige]

it is a quarter of the price though.

 

[el manana]

As an aside, I often see tents referred to as 3, 4 or 5 season; are any tents described as 1 season?

you obviously haven't been to the Leeds and Reading Festival...

 

[dovidola]

As @Henry points out, there are just too many variables which come into play with tent usage, when compared with, say, a sleeping bag. This makes a 'standard' resilience scale very difficult as there would be too many caveats. Simple measures like material specs, pole diameter, hydrostatic heads and other quantifiables are more useful imo.

Of course it's irresponsible for manufacturers to over-rate their products, but I suppose people who want to venture unsupervised into wild places where inclement conditions are a possibility should be possessed of sufficient nous to understand and recognise what makes a shelter fit and suitable for their intended use. If not, they can phone a friend who does, or dial into this forum.

It is to be hoped @gixer you are right about marketing hype ultimately proving counterproductive. Call it what you like, but when I saw the immaculately groomed HMG designer on their promotional vid touting an overpriced scrap of Dyneema as "one awesome badass tent", it wasn't that difficult to spot the Emperor's new clothes. The Dirigio is just another fair(ish)-weather North American ultralight thru-hiker's Designer Shelter which is probably quite good at doing its thing and has a few novel design features to brag about.

But enough of all that - I'm going back to enjoying my 'bomber' cup of coffee.

 

[gixer]

Good point on the potential variables on a tent failure

Surely there are variables in sleeping bag ratings though
If you sleep on the ground without a mat, or on a mat with poor insulation
Then some companies like snugpaks over rate their products
Not ideal but at least the ratings give you a rough idea

With mountain bikes you've got:
Cross-country
Trail
Enduro/All mountain
Gravity/Downhill

There are overlaps, but you have a pretty good idea of what to expect from a bike from each category
You wouldn't expect a Cross-country bike to last more than a few Downhill runs these days
But you could compete in a Cross-country race on a Downhill bike, but you know it's going to be a squishy slog

Likewise a tents that made it to 5 on the scale (geodesic dome types) would do summer in Greece camping, but who'd want to lug around a 11kg tent for those mild conditions and still not have bug protection

 

[WilliamC]

Of course it's irresponsible for manufacturers to over-rate their products, but I suppose people who want to venture unsupervised into wild places where inclement conditions are a possibility should be possessed of sufficient nous to understand and recognise what makes a shelter fit and suitable for their intended use. If not, they can phone a friend who does, or dial into this forum.

It is to be hoped @gixer you are right about marketing hype ultimately proving counterproductive. Call it what you like, but when I saw the immaculately groomed HMG designer on their promotional vid touting an overpriced scrap of Dyneema as "one awesome badass tent", it wasn't that difficult to spot the Emperor's new clothes. The Dirigio is just another fair(ish)-weather North American ultralight thru-hiker's Designer Shelter which is probably quite good at doing its thing and has a few novel design features to brag about.

I have no problem with the manufacturer's description of the Dirigo; they define it as a 3 season tent and it fits what I expect of a 3 season tent - i.e. reasonably strong (won't blow down in 30mph wind or so) but not for proper snow (i.e. heavy snow fall, spindrift or on deep snow). But as @gixer points out, other people might define the seasons differently.
As for badass (which cropped up uncomfortably often), Cambridge Dictionary* defines badass as "something that you admire or find impressive." Seems fair enough to me.


*It is unlikely that HMG meant the Urban Dictionary definition: "A rear end that generates noxious emissions. A backside that produces evil-smelling farts."

 

[Jon jons]

I walk around in a 0 season shelter all day, sometimes it fails me. Normally because I'm not looking where I'm going or being foolish, if you get my analogy.

 

[Dan Outdoors]

Even R ratings arent standardized properly yet, there are 3 different methods used to get the rating and theyll all give differing ratings. I do agree it would be nice to have a simple standard for these things though.

 

[tom]

I'm a bit sceptical about the value of a classification system for equipment like tents. So much depends on the skills and knowledge of users to get good results with equipment. Using a sleeping bag is pretty straighforward but finding an optimal pitch for whats available, reading weather conditions and how they might develop, how to get the most out of a chosen pitch, and equally important, knowing when to bail out etc.

Secondly, as we all know that all equipment involves compromises. Which means we need to weigh up different factors in relation to particular contexts shaped by intended use. There is no alternative to learning about materials, their characteristics, and what strength or grades are used in a particular shelter to choose a compromise. Design is more difficult if not impossible to evaluate without a good foundation of experience.

So IMO, reviews like Max' above Dirigo review and particularly tent comparison tests are much more useful to help with making choices than trusting some classification system.

That said, mountains are volatile places and its not just less experienced people taking stupid risks who come to harm but also highly experienced and knowledgeable hikers and climbers using top equipment....

 

[Foxster]

I have no idea what makes a tent, say, 3 season rather than 4.

I'd be guessing and say the 4 season would be made of more rugged material and perhaps a solid rather than mesh inner. Maybe it has a lower gap between the ground and fly?

Some potential measure for a tent:

1. Waterproofness. We already have this for materials and HH is often quoted for a tent. Doesn't help though if the stitching is poor or the tent badly designed.
2. Weight of the materials used for the different bits e.g. 20D. This gives some idea of how rugged the tent's material is. Problem being that different materials at the same rating vary greatly in strength.
3. Breathability/condensation. Very subjective one this. Depends how many are in the tent, the ambient temperature, whether you have wet gear in the tent...
3. Wind tolerance. This is an important one for me. A very useful comparison would be: If correctly erected on a level surface in a wind tunnel, at what wind speed does it collapse?