Looking for a decent summer bag

[syd_away]

Hello people I'm looking for something to use in the UK summer, for South Downs Way/Ridgeway-type hikes. I'm contemplating this:

https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.c...c88/womens-flame-fmi-down-sleeping-bag-p11310

It's very light but will it be warm enough though? Will the sewn-through baffles be a problem? I do have a decent sleep mat (Multimat Superlite 25 self-inflating) and also a Cocoon silk liner. And of course I can layer up with clothes. Perhaps even the Flame 0 would do? Or should I go for the Flame II? Has anyone else used the Flame/Spark range?

I'm a person of the female persuasion who sleeps cold, and I don't really trust temperature ratings...

 

[Mole]

That wouldn't be warm enough for me, let alone my female partner.
( Both 50 ish)

Ok on the warmest summer nights, but no leeway for cool nights IMO.

If younger and fitter you may find it fine

 

[Baldy]

Criterion lady 350.
If you want female specific. Obviously heavier but would be good into autumn.

 

[Patrick]

Yes. 190g of 850fp down is on the meagre side. It is impressively light, but I'd agree with Mole that it wouldn't provide much margin for the odd cooler night, even in summer. And anyway, isn't the "correct" answer on this forum to this sort of question always a cumulus quilt ?!

 

[syd_away]

Thank you all - I think you've saved me from an expensive mistake!

If younger and fitter you may find it fine

I'm neither younger or fitter (probably)

I got a bit confused when looking at the internet about Criterion (formerly known as Cumulus) and the company now calling themselves Cumulus... are they related? Hope this isn't a Frequently Asked Question! Is this a bit like Brasher -> Berghaus -> Rebranded-as-Brasher again? Or an Aldi/Lidl-type rivalry?

I like the look of the Flame/Spark series because of the light weight and the hydrophobic down. There is a Flame III - 440g of 850+ Fill Power, 670g: https://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/sea-to-summit-flame-fmiii-sleeping-bag/137098802/p

Could be more versatile - or is it too good to be true?

 

[fluffkitten]

What is now called Criterion used to sell Cumulus (the Polish co. is the original)) bags but when they stopped doing that they needed to change name so called themselves Criterion.

 

[Patrick]

I have to say I'm not a Cumulus owner, and my comment was rather tongue in cheek. They do seem to be spoken of well on here, though, and I think the relevant website is here: https://cumulus.equipment/uk_en/sleeping-bags/quilts-comforters.html .
I agree the Flame / Spark S2S sleeping bags seem to have an impressive weight to warmth ratio. The downsides would seem to me to be (a) very lightweight (10D) and hence delicate fabrics, and, more seriously, (b) the limited zip length meaning a loss of versatility - I'd think of "summer" in the UK as easily covering overnight temperatures between 5 and 15 degrees or more, and a bag that copes with the lower end of that I'd want to be able to open right out at the upper end of the temperature range.

 

[cathyjc]

Cumlus have a good reputation - I had one of their bags ( - now in use by my daughter )

But have you considerdd this - https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/down-sleeping-bags/western-mountaineering/summerlite
A quick search shows it's only available in "short" ATM - so not sure if would fit you ?
I'm a short older female who sleeps cold and this is what I would choose.
I'd probably need to boost it with some insulating clothes if the temp. turned chilly - but it will do everything else you are asking for.
Western Mountaineering make the best bags - IMHO, and they hold their value well if you ever need to sell on.

 

[syd_away]

Looking at the Cumulus now - if they're highly regarded here that counts for a lot. Toying with the idea of quilts but worried about getting a cold neck!

Not sure if it's better (in terms of warmth/weight ratio + performance in wet) to have a) hydrophobic down and normal cover or b) normal down and a water-resistant cover?

I agree the Flame / Spark S2S sleeping bags seem to have an impressive weight to warmth ratio. The downsides would seem to me to be (a) very lightweight (10D) and hence delicate fabrics, and, more seriously, (b) the limited zip length meaning a loss of versatility

Hmm yes it doesn't say whether the fabric is ripstop, so it probably isn't - whereas the Cumulus fabric is. The Flame "III" does have a full-length zip though.

But have you considerdd this - https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/down-sleeping-bags/western-mountaineering/summerlite

That looks good - and it has proper box baffles! But it may be too short - I'm about 5'6" tall. It depends if the size refers to the length of the bag or the height of the person?

 

[cathyjc]

Looking at the Cumulus now - if they're highly regarded here that counts for a lot. Toying with the idea of quilts but worried about getting a cold neck!

Not sure if it's better (in terms of warmth/weight ratio + performance in wet) to have a) hydrophobic down and normal cover or b) normal down and a water-resistant cover?



Hmm yes it doesn't say whether the fabric is ripstop, so it probably isn't - whereas the Cumulus fabric is. The Flame "III" does have a full-length zip though.



That looks good - and it has proper box baffles! But it may be too short - I'm about 5'6" tall. It depends if the size refers to the length of the bag or the height of the person?

From the WM website -

Quote :-

Other Questions
What size bag should I get for my height/build?
We build our bags to fit the height stated, for example a 6’0” person should perfectly fit in a 6’0” bag. Many people prefer to have a few inches of wiggle room so users might prefer one size larger. For width we have all our interior dimensions stated in the catalog. The chest measurement is taken at the widest i of the bag, the hip measurement is half way down the body of the bag and the foot measurement is around the widest part of the footbox."

You could always buy - check t's OK and send back if not ?

I've had a lot of sleeping bags over the last 40 yrs. I've had - Rab (a very early one), Mountain Equipment, PHD, Marmot, Cumulus, Feathered Friends and WM.
I've sold on a load and added extra down in a few I didn't think were up to scratch.
I've never needed to add down to any of the WM bags and never sold one on ......


PS. I don't use quilts and cannot comment on them.

 

[turkeyphant]

I would say get a Cumulus Xlite 200 or a Quilt 250 (or even 350 if you need the extra warmth for a similar price).

And if I can piggyback on this thread, I'm also looking for a summer bag but probably sleep a bit warmer and usually wear a hooded down jacket and trousers when sleeping. I'm contemplating the Magic 100 Zip for balmy British summer evenings or warmer climes but curious if anyone has tried it because no matter how you slice it, 105g of 900fp isn't much.

It's a shame Cumulus don't make the quilts out of the same material as the X-Lite line or with vertical baffles.

 

[dovidola]

@syd_away I just bought the standard length Cumulus 350 quilt - if you're 5'6" you shouldn't get cold neck issues!

If, however, you prefer a bag, I still have the Cumulus Quantum 350 bag (730g inc stuff sack) which first converted me to Cumulus. Because I found myself using it in 'opened-out' mode most of the time, I went for the quilt as a weight-saving replacement, but the bag is still in good condition, so if you're interested in a cheaper secondhand option PM me.

 

[cathyjc]

.

 

[turkeyphant]

Just to add I would also say you can probably get a much better mat for warmth (not to mention weight). I'm always suspicious of mats that can't even quote an R value.

 

[SteG]

I'm 5"7 and can pull the cumulus right over my head comfortably. I bought the 350 last year and have managed to use it in all the seasons since. I camp low in the winter and high (above 2500) in the summer. Temps on glyder fawr last Thursday went down to about 5-6 Deg.
If I was planning on doing a multi day lowland walk down south, in the summer, I think I would finally cave in and get the 250. I find a quilt really versatile and happy I made the jump from sleeping bag.

 

[Hd8ekownio24ugh5]

Don't forget Cumulus will also boost the quilt fill for a few spondoolicks. No down shift that I can tell.

 

[kvragu]

I gotta plug cumulus' comforters, best fill/overall weight ratio and cheaper than anything else. I have a spreadsheet to prove this.

Op, aliexpress stuff is also an option.

 

[turkeyphant]

I gotta plug cumulus' comforters, best fill/overall weight ratio and cheaper than anything else. I have a spreadsheet to prove this.

Op, aliexpress stuff is also an option.

I don't understand the comforters. Like the quilts they use 850 FP down.

But even though M400 has 14% more down than the 350 its limit temp is 4C worse. Sure some loft is lost to the square shape but that much?

If you take away the weight of the down it weighs 35% less even though it would appear to have similar dimensions (the comforter is actually longer. There's not much extra hardware on the quilt to account for this and both have H chambers rather than sewn through so it must be the difference between 29g Pertex and 19g Toray but this doesn't quite add up either.

The rough weight of Pertex is 135g but the unfilled weight is 250g (extra 115g) while the comforter's rough weight of Toray is 95g vs unfilled weight of 160g.

Most of all I don't understand why they make the X-Lite and Comforters out of Toray but not the quilts?

 

[kvragu]

I don't understand the comforters. Like the quilts they use 850 FP down.

But even though M400 has 14% more down than the 350 its limit temp is 4C worse. Sure some loft is lost to the square shape but that much?

If you take away the weight of the down it weighs 35% less even though it would appear to have similar dimensions (the comforter is actually longer. There's not much extra hardware on the quilt to account for this and both have H chambers rather than sewn through so it must be the difference between 29g Pertex and 19g Toray but this doesn't quite add up either.

The rough weight of Pertex is 135g but the unfilled weight is 250g (extra 115g) while the comforter's rough weight of Toray is 95g vs unfilled weight of 160g.

Most of all I don't understand why they make the X-Lite and Comforters out of Toray but not the quilts?

Maybe the ratings just aren't up to snuff for the comforter. Their whole deal is that they're 'flexible' so maybe they just didn't standardize them. I think the weight difference seem on point, given the lack of hardware.
I handled the quilt 450 and the l500 (switched from former to latter for sizing) and I would think the 450 to be warmer. Baffle height for the 450 was around 8cm, and for the l500 it's 6-6.5cm. The comforter's baffles bulge up to 8cm while they're flush on the quilt. Their rating is similar, though, unlike the m400 vs. q350 situation. Might really just be a matter of standardization. I'm very keen on my l500, would have probably gone for the m400 but seemed a bit narrow.

 

[syd_away]

Thank you all, this is all very useful information.

The Cumulus bags/quilts all seem to have long delivery/lead times (eg. 20 - 25 working days). Are they made to order?

Slightly puzzled looking at the specs that the quilts seem to come out worse re. weight compared to sleeping bags for the same rating - the opposite of what I would have expected. Eg. Quilt 350 is 600g, whereas the X-Lite 300 bag is 465g, yet both are listed as comfort 2 degrees and limit -4 degrees. Just wondering why that is?

@cathyjc , I don't think the WM Summerlite 5'6" would be too short - in fact it's preferable as it's a bit lighter!

 

[Trail Magic]

First priority if you are a cold sleeper is to invest in a higher R-Value pad.

This is the number one mistake folk seem to make.

Blueboy off Youtube being a good example of an otherwise knowledgeable, experienced, smart hiker getting the fundamentals wrong, until he eventually saw the light. How many expensive bags and quilts did he go through before he realised the obvious...

Alleged warmth, comfort & limit rating of sleeping cocoons are typically based on using an Xtherm et al, base layers and a hat as an assumed starting point.

A lower rated sleeping bag or quilt can be bolstered with clothes and stuffing yer face with goodies to stoke the engine before you settle into snore mode.

A warmer quilt or SB will still be cold if the mat isn't up to snuff.

An X-Lite was cold for me in single digit Cs on the SDW (Feb) so went back to using an Xtherm so the warmth wasn't sucked outta me bones.

You can get away with lower rated kit on overnighters, but on longer trips you'll more easily feel the cold as you are in cumulative calorific deficit, the down won't loft as well due to getting repeatedly damp from atmospheric humidity and the 1L or so of juices we chuck out from breathing and whatnot.

i'd allocate your proposed budget with a different set of priorities, if it's not too late.

Probs already mentioned, but it's a good idea to look at fill weight, quality and type of fill, plus baffle construction (sewn through being a no no expect for the height of summer, which even then can still get chilly)

Enjoy the hikes. Have done the Ridgeway several times over the years as I used to live local. These days I'm a hop skip and a triple jump from the SDW.

 

[Franky]

Alpkit cheaper

 

[Rog Tallbloke]

First priority if you are a cold sleeper is to invest in a higher R-Value pad.

This is the number one mistake folk seem to make.

Agree. The old adage was: 2/3 below you 1/3 above. My 900g S2S insulated double cell array (XL size) pad seems to be well proportioned in insulation terms to my 570g EE XL quilt.

 

[Hd8ekownio24ugh5]

Thank you all, this is all very useful information.

The Cumulus bags/quilts all seem to have long delivery/lead times (eg. 20 - 25 working days). Are they made to order?

Hi Syd-contact with Cumulus, if you're interested in that direction, is always advised. I've had stuff slightly modded even (overfill) sent within days. Never waited more than four days for an item to be sent and I've had five different deliveries from them. I've always found what they said- re post/lift off accurate for what that's worth.

 

[syd_away]

Oh dear - my sleeping mat was one thing I was hoping not to have to replace When I said I slept cold that was based on using cheapo closed-cell foam mats. I bought my Multimat self-inflating mat from the Ray Mears Bushcraft site where it was sold as 4-season and had good reviews. I bought it a few years ago but not used it for camping until last month, and felt I got on well with it - I was warmer and more comfortable than before. But I've been looking at the specs this morning and agree they're not that great. (I've discovered a whole new rabbit-hole of ASTM standards and new R-values and old R-values and Tog ratings )

Incidentally my current sleeping bag is the Mountain Equipment Glacier 600 (now discontinued) -1oC comfort, -7oC limit. I don't believe those comfort figures either but maybe that's due to the mat... 750FP down but also 10% feathers! (I wondered why I kept waking up covered in feathers). And 1120g! Bought a few years ago and seemed light after my previous synthetic bags, but obviously can be improved on.

Hi Syd-contact with Cumulus, if you're interested in that direction, is always advised. I've had stuff slightly modded even (overfill) sent within days. Never waited more than four days for an item to be sent and I've had five different deliveries from them. I've always found what they said- re post/lift off accurate for what that's worth.

That's odd - I'm happy to go with off-the-shelf. The X-Lites are showing as up to 25 days off-the-shelf - in fact I checked and the custom-made ones are saying 7-10 weeks. I wonder if it's a covid-related production bottleneck...