Camping Legally, or not

dovidola · Apr 20, 2020

Posts lifted from elsewhere to avoid cluttering up another thread - Shewie (Admin)

I think bivvys (hooped or otherwise) have their place too - someone else's!

However (*Warning - slight thread drift...) the current restrictions and their anticipated aftermath (which I'm worried could prove permanent) are making me think for the first time about stealthier (i.e. criminal) camping, and I can see a bivvy might be an option.

Padstowe · Apr 20, 2020

Although I get where you are coming from, personally I've never worried about where I can or can't sleep.
Any time anyone has woke me up & told me "you can't sleep here" my reply has always been along the lines of "well I was doing a good job of it till you came along".
(If i have to move, I move, if I don't, I don't)

TinTin · Apr 20, 2020

dovidola said:
I think bivvys (hooped or otherwise) have their place too - someone else's!

However (*Warning - slight thread drift...) the current restrictions and their anticipated aftermath (which I'm worried could prove permanent) are making me think for the first time about stealthier (i.e. criminal) camping, and I can see a bivvy might be an option.

Relax its not "criminal" it is just trespass. That is potentially a civil offense. If they don't know who you are they can't take action against you.

I fancy doing the Pennine Way some time by walking until I'm too tired then getting into a bivi until I've had enough sleep, repeat.

Enzo · Apr 20, 2020

As long as you move on when asked it's not criminal.
But I prefer a strife free life, so I try and avoid being in that position.

dovidola · Apr 20, 2020

PhilHo said:
Relax its not "criminal" it is just trespass. That is potentially a civil offense. If they don't know who you are they can't take action against you.

That was then. This is now. And who knows what will be later.

In point of law, there is no such thing as a 'civil offence', at least not in England and Wales. There is a 'civil wrong' or tort, for which you can be sued for damages. Whether you can be identified for such action is a separate matter.

Padstowe said:
Although I get where you are coming from, personally I've never worried about where I can or can't sleep.
Any time anyone has woke me up & told me "you can't sleep here" my reply has always been along the lines of "well I was doing a good job of it till you came along".
(If i have to move, I move, if I don't, I don't)

Exactly my position. Until now.

Enzo said:
As long as you move on when asked it's not criminal.
But I prefer a strife free life, so I try and avoid being in that position.

Ditto. Until now.

My point is that until the current 'crisis provisions' came along, we wildcamped (in England and Wales) in a somewhat grey legal area and as long as individuals conducted themselves sensibly there was seldom any difficulty. This crisis is shining an (unwelcome IMO) light into how the law operates (and doesn't) in this sphere of human activity, and my concern is that new legislation of a more permanent nature may be forthcoming, plus the means of enforcing it.

EM-Chiseller · Apr 20, 2020

.

PhilHo said:
Relax its not "criminal" it is just trespass. That is potentially a civil offense. If they don't know who you are they can't take action against you.

I fancy doing the Pennine Way some time by walking until I'm too tired then getting into a bivi until I've had enough sleep, repeat.

In Britain, it is legal to use a bivi bag by the side of a right of way or on access land. Your are resting and not camping.

Rog Tallbloke · Apr 20, 2020

Chiseller said:
.

In Britain, it is legal to use a bivi bag by the side of a right of way or on access land. Your are resting and not camping.

Interesting. Where can I read about what is defined as a bivi bag? Is there a size limit? Does the regulation prohibit any kind of pole structure?

TinTin · Apr 20, 2020

Enzo said:
As long as you move on when asked it's not criminal.
But I prefer a strife free life, so I try and avoid being in that position.

Its never criminal.

EM-Chiseller · Apr 20, 2020

Rog Tallbloke said:
Interesting. Where can I read about what is defined as a bivi bag? Is there a size limit? Does the regulation prohibit any kind of pole structure?

I'm not certain on the hooped part Rog. There was an article in the paper and magazines a couple of years or more back. A man bivid/wild camped all across Britain. He slept in areas with limited public access and on private land with public rights of way crossing it.
I may be incorrect on this next bit... But I'm sure he slept on some Royal land aswell.

TinTin · Apr 20, 2020

dovidola said:
That was then. This is now. And who knows what will be later.

In point of law, there is no such thing as a 'civil offence', at least not in England and Wales.

That's why I misspelled it ;-)

Rog Tallbloke · Apr 20, 2020

Chiseller said:
I'm not certain on the hooped part Rog. There was an article in the paper and magazines a couple of years or more back. A man bivid/wild camped all across Britain. He slept in areas with limited public access and on private land with public rights of way crossing it.
I may be incorrect on this next bit... But I'm sure he slept on some Royal land aswell.

Golf courses are my favourite. Deserted at night. Nice flat pitches on well tended grass to be had.

Heltrekker · Apr 20, 2020

In the past when I've needed to pitch in areas where I might have risked a dubious welcome, I've always sneaked off the path to find somewhere a bit covert where if you pitch late and leave early, nobody knows you've been, and if they can't find you, they can't move you on!

Shewie · Apr 20, 2020

Rog Tallbloke said:
Golf courses are my favourite. Deserted at night. Nice flat pitches on well tended grass to be had.

Just don’t pitch over a sprinkler head

Enzo · Apr 20, 2020

I think camping is an issue on rights of way, but you can rest and have something to eat. Not sure how clearly camping is defined.

Rog Tallbloke · Apr 20, 2020

Shewie said:
Just don’t pitch over a sprinkler head

Haha, yes. Fell foul of that one on some communal grass in Malaga once.

HillBelly · Apr 20, 2020

Chiseller said:
.

In Britain, it is legal to use a bivi bag by the side of a right of way or on access land. Your are resting and not camping.

Not sure where that comes from but I don't think its correct. Resting comes under stopping or lingering. The side of a right of way can be in someones garden.

EM-Chiseller · Apr 20, 2020

HillBelly said:
Not sure where that comes from but I don't think its correct. Resting comes under stopping or lingering. The side of a right of way can be in someones garden.

Has to be a bit of common sense applied... You can always travel less than a km to be clear of a garden.
If I recall correctly, In some countries you can bivi on someone's adjoining land as long as your a certain distance from a dwelling.

Padstowe · Apr 20, 2020

Chiseller said:
.

In Britain, it is legal to use a bivi bag by the side of a right of way or on access land. Your are resting and not camping.

Same kinda law applies in different countries aswell, I know some people who got done for setting up a tent while I who was just sleeping under the stars didn't comment an offence.

So may be something like that?
Edit: I think it was something to do with the tent being a structure or something to that effect.

EM-Chiseller · Apr 20, 2020

HillBelly said:
Not sure where that comes from but I don't think its correct. Resting comes under stopping or lingering. The side of a right of way can be in someones garden.

I'd say, you stop to eat, read a map, make adjustments etc... I'd call resting, laying down and having recovery time on your journey. That would be a stronger reason on a thru hike etc than a couple of days walking a circular.

EM-Chiseller · Apr 20, 2020

This might be the bloke who put me onto the ability to sleep on a PROW
“On public rights of way, I have a right to pass and re-pass, take rest and/or sleep so long as it is not in a tent.”
— Andy Strangeway, campaigner and adventurer

HillBelly · Apr 20, 2020

He can put it in italics and quotes, but it doesn't mean its extracted from law.... I'd need to see that to believe it.

EM-Chiseller · Apr 20, 2020

HillBelly said:
He can put it in italics and quotes, but it doesn't mean its extracted from law.... I'd need to see that to believe it.

Seeing as he's a Councillor and promotes access rights... I've no need to disbelieve it... And what's the worst thing can happen... I'm 'asked' to move on.
As a Councillor, would he publicly put his name to a statement that wasn't legally correct?

Padstowe · Apr 20, 2020

I'd say it all depends on how the country you are in defines "camping".
Nothing to do with tents, but a New Zealand mate of mine some 20yrs ago told me that back home then he could park up his van anywhere that wasn't private property with no problem, but as soon as he put something outside the van it was considered camping & was illegal unless at a camping ground.

Enzo · Apr 20, 2020

I think in at least some Nordic countries you can camp anywhere as long as your out of sight.
But if your out of sight you can camp anywhere here too, no witness, no crime.

EM-Chiseller · Apr 20, 2020

Rog Tallbloke said:
Interesting. Where can I read about what is defined as a bivi bag? Is there a size limit? Does the regulation prohibit any kind of pole structure?

On the tent part... From the dictionary of all places...

tent1
/tɛnt/
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noun
a portable shelter made of cloth, supported by one or more poles and stretched tight by cords or loops attached to pegs driven into the ground.

So I figure even a free standing tent is still a tent and a hooped bivi, would be a tent, with or without peg points?

Then a bivi bag that has peg points, but no hoop... Should be what it is a bag.
?

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