Random gas stove musings, boil times and fuel consumption figures. Not very interesting.

[Mole]

I'm quite happy with using alcohol or ESBIT for multiday backpacking trips. But the last year or so, I've been seeking a simple gas setup for Ten Tors training and overnighters where we have very early starts, so main requirement being speed of boil. With stability second. Not really interested in efficiency as it's only to be used for a couple of days at a time maximum.

I briefly had a Jetboil minimo. Moved it on due to (IMO) poor build quality.

Then a Primus ETA lite, which I recently sold because I felt it was an overkill system for my needs, and not getting the use it deserved.

I have and use regularly an old original Jetboil pcs for work .
I have an assortment of other cart top burners, so decided to run a few comparison tests:

Fire Maple 116-T - bought 2010
BRS 3000 - bought 2015
APG stove from AliExpress - an almost clone of the Soto Windmaster ( no microregulator) - bought last week

I did a few boils this evening whilst cooking dinner. Not especially scientific controls in place, but gives an idea for performance.

New Primus powergas 250 cart
Indoors. 500ml water. Toaks 650 mug (95mm diameter)

I also used the kovea spider for interest, and also the Jetboil pcs.

Boil times:

APG 4'10" , 4"30
BRS3000. 5'40"
FMS 116-T 5'38"
Kovea Spider 6'07"
Jetboil PCS 4'10"

The only stove which looked like it had obvious "flame spill" up the sides of the pan was the APG, though it was not running anywhere near full blast.

Quite surprised by the Kovea. Thought it would be faster by the racket it made.

My ETA lite+ was usually around the 4 minute mark too.

Will maybe get round to using a wider pan for tests ( 115mm ), but I really want a compact setup which will fit a 100g cartridge and stove in the pan.

So, looks like the Jetboil or the APG for now. I feel the removeable APG pan support could have durability issues in time. Dunno what the real Windmaster is like.
I may get round to getting a Soto Amicus as it looks solid, more compact and the pan supports are permanently attached.

Comments welcome

 

[edh]

'Not very interesting'



TBH I don't find much stove talk interesting. Heat source, warms stuff up.

Really... 15ml for 500ml means **** all when your water has ice spicules in it in the morning.

Gas stoves (very occasional use for me) are just a bit faster/less messy/heavier.

 

[Mole]

Gas stoves (very occasional use for me) are just a bit faster/less messy/heavier.

Exactly that. But if they are gonna be heavier, there should be a decent upside speedwise.
A 6 + minutes 500ml boil is achievable with alcohol.

But I can't run alcohol stoves inside a parked minibus....

 

[edh]

Well, actually you can....but..

 

[Mole]

Well, I might get away with a Trangia

A mate of mine reckons as a teen hiker, when travelling home from a trip by British Rail, he and his buddy on occasion used to lock themselves in a loo and make a brew and cook bacon on the Trangia.
Probably did it the once..

 

[Shewie]

Interesting to see the figures for the Kovea, I've only used mine for car camping trips to Europe so far.

The cheap Karrimor cart top stove I picked up yonks ago is a good little burner, the foldy out legs look like they could fall off at any moment but it's lasted surprisingly well as a loaner, I think it's a predecessor to the xlite but it looks very similar.

 

[Enzo]

I used to use a petrol stove in my transit
One of my colleagues did too, we all laughed rather than helped when it went up, but in a supportive way....
My fastest setup is crux Terra h.e pot with karrimor (vango type) cart top stove. Was surprised to find my alpkit jetboil clone was only 1000w, not that fast.

 

[JKM]

I find the spiders bark is worse that it's bite. Lots of noise for not much result.
However while it may not have the fastest boil times it makes it excellent to cook on. It simmers beautifully and I can make a mean risotto on it.

Mine does seem to be more vicious in liquid feed mode, once the fireballs have subsided...

Overall much better than my old snowpeak gigapower which could melt aluminium pans.

 

[Mole]

I find the spiders bark is worse that it's bite. Lots of noise for not much result.
However while it may not have the fastest boil times it makes it excellent to cook on. It simmers beautifully and I can make a mean risotto on it.

Mine does seem to be more vicious in liquid feed mode, once the fireballs have subsided...

Overall much better than my old snowpeak gigapower which could melt aluminium pans.

That's useful to know. I primarily bought it for it's packability, and for proper cooking ( I might even use it in winter one day!) But mainly because it was "cheap" on massdrop, I am a gearhound and fell for the "Adventures in Stoving" reviews.

 

[JKM]

@Mole I also have a wind deflector a'la @Whiteburn https://whiteburnswanderings.wordpress.com/2013/10/17/kovea-spider-stove/
Which makes a great deal of difference outdoors.
It does restrict me to a smaller pot though so I need to make myself one similar to the bobcat http://www.flatcatgear.com/bobcat-kovea-cooking-system/
Instead

 

[Bopdude]

Well I gave in and bought a BRS clone from Amazon yesterday, got it today and did a quick boil test on 350ml, I use that amount as that is what I need for my dehydrated meals and a coffee is also that for me, anyway, tap water, indoor ( I know ) rolling boil in 1 minute 50 seconds, and the stove wasn't even on full knacker, now that's quick imho

 

[Mole]

Sadly, I did a few more test boils with the Kovea, the APG and my other spare, BRS3000

Mostly, this time with a 115mm wide Toaks 700 pan. All boil times were a little improved in this pan. ( I did a boil with the 95mm/650ml too). All in the 4'30"- 5'20" range.

We know that wider pans are better for heat transfer anyway. Unfortunately this pan less useful for packing a 100 cart + burner. Titan kettle or a 115mm/900ml pot is better for packing as taller.


These times really aren't massively better than the fastest alcohol stoves. E.g. Dave Vaughan is getting" consistent 5-6 minute boils in the field with Stormin's new "cone" stove in a cone. Padowan was getting 6 minute boils with a type of MYOG stove similar to Zelphs fancee feast or cobalt stoves.

Given the added faff ( babysitting/ stability) and noise of cart top gas stoves over alcohol/cone I'm starting to think the only ones worth having are an integrated system like a Jetboil/ETA+ and remote with preheat for winter/ proper cooking. But they are heavy... So maybe just for special circumstances...

 

[Enzo]

My crux h.e pot and karrimor 'vango type' ti cart top stove does 400ml 11 deg water in 1.30, the pot is 200+ grams but its quick.
My best meths setup is a 70mm speedster type stove and 900ml pot, 5.15 with meths 4.45 with sooty iso.

 

[Mole]

1'30" ! That's fast. If you are ever bored, can you see how long for 500ml?
Your stove might be the Fire Maple FM116-t rebadged?

Maybe I should try the Jetboil HE pot with the other stoves...

 

[Enzo]

Yup that looks like it, I'll give it a go with 500ml when I get a chance.
In the blurb crux kit with their burner ( 3000w) it says 2.3 mins for 1l

 

[Mole]

Well, I tried the Jetboil pan with the APG stove. Just on 2 minutes to a rolling boil.(500ml).
So HE pot is the way to go for speed ( we knew that).
Funnily enough my ETA lite + wasn't that fast. And neither is the Jetboil stove itself.

Wondering if the Jetboil stove is faulty/needs the jet cleaning, as it takes twice the time. It is quite old ( gauze type burner head) and was a kind gift.

 

[Imperial Dave]

interesting stuff Mole. do you factor in the ambient temperature as well? from dredged memory, the colder the weather, the worse gas burners become versus alcohol...?

 

[Bopdude]

Just did 700ml in my Imusa pot on the BRS clone, rolling boil in 4.30, not too shabby imho

 

[Mole]

interesting stuff Mole. do you factor in the ambient temperature as well? from dredged memory, the colder the weather, the worse gas burners become versus alcohol...?

Dave- re the OP I'm just doing comparative speed tests of the stoves I own for the purposes stated.

I'm aware there are various other factors involved with using different fuels/stoves. but they're not relevant to my current quest, but To answer your question, if it's likely to be freezing cold I'll use alcohol or the remote burner, and/or take steps to warm the cartridge.

 

[Enzo]

Seems to me that the burners on the all in one kits seem quite low wattage.

 

[Mole]

A Soto Windmaster came up for sale at a good price on FB UL Gear Exchange yesterday. And from a local vendor who lived in a town my way home from work. It would have been rude not to!

A quality item. Hiking Jim of Adventures in Stoving rates it as the best cartridge top stove. For wind performance and in cold weather. The 4 way support is very stable and grippy. The piezo igniter is cleverly protected.
It fits across inside a 95mm pan.

As with the APG, getting just over 2 minutes for a boil using the Jetboil Pot.
With a Toaks 700, 3.40", so faster than any of my other stoves on non HE pots.

85g . But, as a much faster replacement for the Jetboil burner, it brings the system weight down from 440g to 360g.

Think my search is over.
For now...

 

[Whiteburn]

........A quality item. Hiking Jim of Adventures in Stoving rates it as the best cartridge top stove. For wind performance and in cold weather..........Think my search is over.
For now...

There's no doubt that the Soto is a very well-built stove BUT it will not perform any better than any other canister top stove in cold weather. No-one can change the fundamental laws of physics.

 

[Mole]

There's no doubt that the Soto is a very well-built stove BUT it will not perform any better than any other canister top stove in cold weather. No-one can change the fundamental laws of physics.

Well, the claim is that the much larger jet than a needle valve allows a far greater quantity of gas through at low canister pressure. So giving better performance to a point.
I've read plenty of accounts of actual users claiming better cold weather performance than a basic needle valve.


Have you done tests which refute this?

Given I have an APG burner with similar burner head but no regulator, I should do a test outside later to compare.

Watch this space!

 

[ColinHawke]

I’ve got a Soto Windmaster and whilst it does seem to do better with nearly empty cartridges it still struggles with low temps.
As has been mentioned it’s physics - as the stove is working heat is subsequently lost from the liquid as it vaporises (latent heat of vaporisation) and to a lesser extent the gas cools as it expands. According to Wikipedia isobutane has a boiling point of -11.7 degC and n-butane/butane -1/+1 degC so the boiling point will be somewhere between these two depending on the mix. So if the environmental temp is low it doesn’t take much time after the stove is turned on to drop the liquid mix below its boiling point and the stove output drops off to almost nothing. I usually get around this by sitting the canister in warm water to get the liquid gas to above its boiling point. Winter mixes work better with a bit of propane added - inverted canister liquid feed stoves work best ..

 

[Mole]

Sure, I understand the figures, and that all cart top stoves will struggle below freezing. I'm not expecting magic. But the claim of microregulator stoves is they work better than a simple needle valve stove in similar conditions. I don't know. The manufacturer claims they do, as do various accounts I've read. But Whiteburn claims above that they don't work any better. I'll not know unless I try a side by side test myself.