Lightwave Sigma - S10, S15 and S22

SteG

Thru Hiker
I can only think he's putting the guy lines at that angle because he see's the large side panels as the most vulnerable to wind? I remember thinking when S10 first came out that it didn't seem the type of shelter I would be happy just pitching anywhere exsposed because of the large flattish back panel. Perhaps that's his first impression? I can't think of any other reason to put guy lines like that in seemingly unnatural position.
 

RobH

Ultralighter
Possibly, I have asked him. I did have the wind turn 90 deg on me one night and was blowing directly onto the back. Wind was so bad I got changed into my hiking gear and waterproofs just incase it all gave way. Nothing did and all was well.
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
Thats a good review and a similar experience to me. I don't get the guy line angles either. IMO the guys need to be pulled in line with the poles and that way the fly door will be taught. Otherwise it will flap a bit. The damp on the floor would be from condensation and quickly wiped up. Same issue when you get inside with wet waterproofs on. He suggests a bivi inside for the sleeping bag, I tried this with a SMD Bivi and had condensation inside. I used an Apex67 over bag which worked well. Carol must be away as I usually get a quick response to my emails.
Rob - what material is your SMD bivi made of (in view of the condensation experienced)?

I also checked the youtube vid & Snowymatrix's latests comments describe exchanging emails with Carol re the strap failure, but no resolution as yet.
 

RobH

Ultralighter
The Bivi is Top Fabric: 20D Nylon Ripstop WPB, DWR/10,400MM PeU, 18,300 g/day MVTR, Bottom Fabric: 30D Nylon Ripstop, DWR/1200mm PeU, FR CPAI84. In fairness I am reconsidering my initial thoughts as I remembered that I left the top fully open and tucked it inside the bivi this there was double fabric on the upper face. I will give it another go later in the month and give it a chance to breath next time. A smash proof bivi would eventually be the way ahead.

I did get a reply from Carol and he was very helpful. I need to put the tent up and use a hose to see how the inner doors got wet. It only happened at the end of the trip but just need to check if it came in a seam. Carol stated that this has only happened once before and is keen to check if this is a problem. I think also I may have made the wrong decision in getting the S22 over the S20 as I only need 1 entrance. But it will serve as a 2 man going forward. Longer trips I will revert back to my S15.
 

Dr Zarkov

Section Hiker
The Bivi is Top Fabric: 20D Nylon Ripstop WPB, DWR/10,400MM PeU, 18,300 g/day MVTR, Bottom Fabric: 30D Nylon Ripstop, DWR/1200mm PeU, FR CPAI84. In fairness I am reconsidering my initial thoughts as I remembered that I left the top fully open and tucked it inside the bivi this there was double fabric on the upper face. I will give it another go later in the month and give it a chance to breath next time. A smash proof bivi would eventually be the way ahead.

I did get a reply from Carol and he was very helpful. I need to put the tent up and use a hose to see how the inner doors got wet. It only happened at the end of the trip but just need to check if it came in a seam. Carol stated that this has only happened once before and is keen to check if this is a problem. I think also I may have made the wrong decision in getting the S22 over the S20 as I only need 1 entrance. But it will serve as a 2 man going forward. Longer trips I will revert back to my S15.
I think we have the same updated but not the latest version of the S15 with the 2 eyelets, smaller porch door, not the 2 way zip etc. I was for a while anyways tempted to sell it and get the newer version but our version has slightly beefier poles and materials (but same waterproofness) and has stood up to the weather well. I am now thinking of getting a longer zip fitted for the inner. Not sure if getting a 2 way zip for the fly is an option / worth it. Can live with the one way zip. For me the S15 is an all season tent and the S10 is a deluxe bivy.( I know it's really a tent) :)
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
Rob - that bivi has very decent specs so, as you suggest, likely the folding over of the fabric (plus mild temps & very high humidity inside the S22).

I still have an original BPL Vapr bivy which is perfect in this role (i think it weighs about 200g which is very respectable considering its age and materials progress since...)

Door tie back elastic is aways a pain - acts as a wick so seam sealing unlikely to have much impact.
 
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RobH

Ultralighter
@Dr Zarkov , yes we have the same S15. I did myog some clips at the bottom of the zip to hold it together if I unzipped the doors during cooking. I too would love to have a T zip to open it fully when getting in and out.

@sherpa Yes I had looked at the Katabatic and Bora bivy's but at the time availability was an issue. I also use a 67Apex over quilt which can catch and moisture in the air and protect the sleeping bag. It also adds more heat and last week I could not sleep in my sleeping bag as was too hot. Just used the Bivi and fleece PJ's. Ye the door tiebacks are a pain but unfortunately unavoidable.
 

Mole

Thru Hiker
I've had success stopping wicking via tiebacks/tapes etc that pass through seams.

Use a very diluted mix of Silnett and white spirit, and get it to wick through the tape/lace etc. Squidge it in. Once cured it usually stops the wicking effect.
 

RobH

Ultralighter
Just to update. Carol asked me to put the S22 up and test for leaks. I did this and after 15 mins I had water pooling on the inner bathtub which had come from the inner mesh and doors. I then tested my S15 and there was not such an issue, a little drip from the tieback but due to the angle of the door it remained outside the bathtub.

Looking at both tents there is a distinct difference between the angles of the inners, the S15 is vertical whilst the S22 follows the fly before it drops to the bathtub. Thus any condensation on the fly will soak into the inner and also drip into the bathtub. The vestibule of the S22 is 60cm whilst the S15 is 75cm, also there is more materiel between the mesh inner and the fly which also exasperated the connection area between the fly and the inner. Not so on the S15. Have any of the other S22 owners noticed this? Is yours the same where the mesh connects to the fly.

I also noticed a distinct difference between the 2 tents with regard to beading. Although the S22 did not leak through the materiel, the fly looked wetted out after 15 mins from the hose pipe whilst the S15 shook it all off. The S15 is of course made of the earlier materiel.

Will update further when I get a response from Carol.

IMG_1597.jpegIMG_1602.jpegIMG_1603.jpeg
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
after just 15 minutes that's a pretty significant failure. please excuse my ignorance Rob, I'm confident you had the doors fully closed & did not use a high pressure jet to target them, so how did the water get through the fly/door so quickly?
 

RobH

Ultralighter
@sherpa Yes doors fully closed, normal garden hose set to rain/spray mode. The water comes from the seam where the inner meets the fly. The main culprit is the tieback which sucks the external water into the tent, then drips on the inner Mesh. In use the issue seems to be compounded by condensation on the inner fly touching the mesh and running into the bathtub due to the angle of the mesh and how loose the materiel is, being allowed to come into contact. This is not an issue with the S15.
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
interesting. wonder how the S22 made it through product testing? at least this failure can be mitigated with some seamsealing :)
 

RobH

Ultralighter
Yes that's true for the seam. It won't however stop the condensation transferring to the mesh inner and down into the bathtub. This is due to too much materiel and a shallow fly angle. Its like having a fly sheet touching an inner tent, never a good thing. The main tent materiel did not run and held onto the moisture until it dried or was transferred outside as it should. As I said my S15 is a better design and does not have this issue. Tried bunching up the groundsheet by 40cm and this did help to pull the mesh away from the fly, increase the distance of the vestibule and its right. But goes from a 2 man to 1 man. I wonder if any other S22 is like this or is it a manufacture defect on mine.
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
Doubt that your S22 is faulty Rob, likely it's the design creating this problem. As it's a fairly new model with low volume sales, there are few reviews of the S22 on the web; I suspect you are the 1st person to use it over a prolonged period in challenging conditions. Likely that other owners havent yet experienced the conditions that results in this failure.
 

RobH

Ultralighter
Carol seems to think there may be a seam issue, but also maybe a manufacture issue too. In any event it is going back to Carol and I am looking at a Pretents Ridgeline. I will still keep the S15 as that has performed great. I was not as keen on the new materiel against the old one either. The older seems in my mind to be better at shedding water.
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
Did you find that leakage/condensation affected the inner at both doors?

Hope this is a faulty unit - especially regarding water repellancy. Not seen any S10 or S15 owners observing this, so fingers crossed for the new/lighter material.

Note - anyone who reads any previous posts of mine where I extoll the virtues of the S22 as it has 2 doors - please ignore my comments!
 

RobH

Ultralighter
Yes both doors were affected. It took me a while to work it out as I never have this issue with my S15. It may just be mine that was at fault, with too much gusset holding the inner up.
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
Checking the dimensions on Lightwave's site, the depth of the S22's vestibule definitely has the fly quite close to the inner as the fly door's pitch is quite steep.

Not so on the S15 and S20 which are the same height as the S22 but have a deeper vestibule, the door fabrics are not so close, less likely to touch/transfer condensation.

So, its definitely looking like the S15 and S20 are the best options.

Following this thread closely as I'm liking the idea of the S15 as a winter solo tent - sturdy, compact & light.
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
On Snowymatrix's recent youtube S15 video, a chap has posted that he had a serious failure of his S15 - one pole broken/one bent in 50+mph winds in Lakes
 

Dr Zarkov

Section Hiker
On Snowymatrix's recent youtube S15 video, a chap has posted that he had a serious failure of his S15 - one pole broken/one bent in 50+mph winds in Lakes
Another comment mentions the double grommets is for double poles. Not so sure they were added for double poles as the first versions had one grommet and early reviews mentioned users had a tough job fitting the poles when pitching. Lots of tents have 2 grommets which I always thought were for things like sustained wet weather use etc. Food for thought though. Wonder if the person out in 50+mph was on a summit.
 

SteG

Thru Hiker
The only pole I had broke was when I had the pole on the inner grommets on a tera nova solar minor. That along with strong gusty winds and schoolboy error pitching, it was all to much and snapped through my fly.
 

RobH

Ultralighter
Another comment mentions the double grommets is for double poles. Not so sure they were added for double poles as the first versions had one grommet and early reviews mentioned users had a tough job fitting the poles when pitching. Lots of tents have 2 grommets which I always thought were for things like sustained wet weather use etc. Food for thought though. Wonder if the person out in 50+mph was on a summit.
I too don't think the double grommets are for a double pole. As you suggest they are for extra tension if the materiel stretches. I found this after the tent was erected from wet, had to use an inner grommet to get the tension. Also although not difficult to get the poles in on the later tents, the earlier ones did have people struggling so another set in there would seem to be impossible.
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
Another comment mentions the double grommets is for double poles. Not so sure they were added for double poles as the first versions had one grommet and early reviews mentioned users had a tough job fitting the poles when pitching. Lots of tents have 2 grommets which I always thought were for things like sustained wet weather use etc. Food for thought though. Wonder if the person out in 50+mph was on a summit.

Sigma tents have the 2nd grommet to ease pole connection - they are still tight & difficult with cold wet hands. Guess the canopy needs that tension? Sadly lots of garbage on youtube - Sigma pole sleeves have no room for a 2nd pole. Something for Carol to consider? Also a beefier pole upgrade option??

Edit - in my experience with Lightwave/Cux tents - it is a combination of webbing length and grommet options which is lacking. Carol should upgrade again to longer webbing (ease of handling) and 3 grommets for added flexibility/ease of use.

Camping high inevitably means stronger winds. Pitching on/near summits/ridges expoese the tent to accelerating winds.

Social media places the manufacturer in an odious position - damage if often due to user error yet its the manufacturer who ends up with reputational damage. I can think of a good example - a failed strap not too far removed from this thread....
 

DannyGeorge

Summit Camper
Couldn't find a follow up from Snowy regarding Carol's response to the failure. Will be interesting to see how that goes.

On a slightly different note. as much as as I understand the grandeur and thrill of pitching on the summits, I never willingly choose to go toe to toe with nature if it can be helped. Using the land around me to my advantage makes me feel like I'm working with nature not trying to conquer it. Again, I understand the thrill of high exposed spots but I like to do that whilst I'm awake and taking it in. If I'm asleep and dead to the world, then I just want to it to be as safe and as stress free as I can possibly make it! At the end of the day, camping is a means to an end for me, the whole time I'm just waiting to wake up again and carry on doing what I'm really there to do - hike and explore!
 

sherpa

Section Hiker
In a response to a comment at the end of last week Snowy said that he was still waiting for a returns label from the owner....
 
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