Lake District is "exclusive, mainly white, mainly middle‐class club..."

Discussion in 'Media Links' started by Lempo, Dec 29, 2019.

  1. MyHatGandhi

    MyHatGandhi Summit Camper

    That is such a terrible headline. How do they get away with it???
    Taz38 likes this.
  2. cathyjc

    cathyjc Thru Hiker

    Doctors and hillwalking now there's a combination :D. My expereience is that almost all 'white' Scottish doctors have been hillwalking at some point - and I've met an awfull lot of them :whistling: - common conversation with the anaesthetist in the prep. room before being put under "which hills did you do last w/e" :rolleyes::rolleyes:.

    But doctors in general - less so. In Scotland medical school allocate places ~ 1/3rd to foreign students, 1/3 to applicants from non-state/private schools (middle class) and 1/3rd to state school pupils (also probably mostly middle class). The private/state school divide is not deliberate it just reflects "advantage".
    It's really not easy to get into medical school without the "right" background to help you get there. Another story altogether.
    I get the impression many of the foreign medical students are "non-white" and come from wealthy families - the costs/fees etc. are very high and most will go back 'home' to work - the NHS does not remunerate sufficiently to recompense the vast outlay needed to qualify.
  3. Bmblbzzz

    Bmblbzzz Trail Blazer

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! I've been trying to understand Chomsky's universal grammar theory, I've no space in my head for another theory today! Take it away!
    Baldy likes this.
  4. cathyjc

    cathyjc Thru Hiker

    To counter your argument.
    Many first generation immigrants work and work and work - just to make a living and give the next generation a boost in opportunities. The first generation don't have time to do time consuming leisure pursuits.
    The 2nd generation are the ones who may change all that.
    In fact in the last few years I've seen more cars full of 'Asian' families in Highland car parks - looking at the scenery and taking photos - exploring the country they now live in. They watch the other folks wearing packs and boots with curiosity :wideyed:.
    So maybe things will change, and soon :thumbsup:. Most hill going folks are friendly so I don't think they will be put off once they do get out there.
    Chiseller likes this.
  5. gixer

    gixer Thru Hiker

    No argument to counter Cathy

    I just don't see why white people would be guessing and talking about what other races are thinking or feeling
    I think it's massively arrogant to go down that road, and kinda insulting as it's playing into stereotyping and leading people to think that they don't have a voice of their own

    Likewise your comments about work work work
    It's a generalisation and absolutely pointless

    The Asian families thing as well, how on earth do you know they're Asian?
    They could be 5th generation English, but by putting a label on them you've only succeeded in wiping out their identities and plastering over it with guesses and suppositions

    Why guess, why stereotype, why make sweeping statements
    I wouldn't speak for women, i'm a bloke so i've got absolutely no idea what's going on in a women's mind

    It's not up to us as hikers (or non hikers) to tell others what they should or should not be doing
    Anyone able bodied enough has the same opportunity to go hiking as everyone else
    If they don't fancy the idea then why advertise or try and convince them?

    That alone makes zero sense to me
    Why would anyone care what colour skin a hiker has, why do they bring into a hobby that's there for everyone?

    That's bad enough, to then start throwing guesses, sweeping statements and random stereotypes about people's race and lifestyles just makes things even more stupid
    Ally likes this.
  6. dovidola

    dovidola Thru Hiker

    Quite tragic. Ethnicity monitoring on the hill? One of the attractions of hiking for me is (was?) getting far away from this kind of nonsense, to what seems the only place we have left where such politically motivated social engineering agendas truly don't matter.

    Ah well, there's nothing for it. Clearly my presence and that of other white middle-aged males in the outdoors is offensive to all those superior thinkers who know what's best for us. We shall have to form press gangs and go to 'areas of deprivation' where we can biff those of a more 'diverse' profile over the head and transport them to a suitable AONB (pre-booked with the new Park Ranger Service) where they can be revived in time to witness a spectacular mountain sunrise and thus become lifelong devotees and participants.

    There is certainly more that should be done to attract under-represented groups into the great outdoors. So much of our wild countryside is culturally unsuited (and hence discriminatory) to a range of demographics. It's often too cold, wet and windy - something must be done to challenge this. Have you noticed how clean and litter free it is? This obviously alienates the young, as does the lack of mobile and internet service. Peace and quiet prevails - a network of supersized amplifiers and speakers is urgently needed. It's almost totally crime-free as well, which is going to make some types feel uncomfortable, as does the inexcusable shortage of junk food outlets above the treeline.

    Speaking of which, has anybody else noticed the kind of names we persist in giving our mountains? White European, overwhelmingly masculine, some even phallic - high time for some enlightened university department to undertake a complete revision and correct the mistakes of history. That'll make a huge difference, as will sending those 'unwoke' peaks themselves on a diversity awareness course.

    Accountability is woeful - there is simply insufficient blame and victimhood. If someone falls down a cliff there is literally no-one they can sue, which can't be right. We need some lawyers to sort this out pronto. In the meantime, Mountain Rescue should be made to pay for not being there to catch them.

    Frivolity aside, we could well see the implementation of 'controlled access' arrangements with more or less control applied to some groupings than others. For example, I could be made to pay an ethnicity/gender/age/income 'pollution charge' which could be used to fund access and amenities for more deserving kinds of people. If that doesn't do the trick, I may simply find I'm met at one of several Authorised Access Points (AAPs) by a Park Access Officer (PAO) - a subdivision of the burgeoning Park Ranger Service (PRS) - who will check my diversity profile and refuse entry by reason of there being a full quota of bookings for my type on the hill for that day/month/year/decade.

    Let's enjoy it while we still can. With even the current technology it is a simple matter to make presence in a Designated Hiking Area (DHA) an offence unless you've purchased and are wearing an electronic locator tag issued by - guess who?- our friendly PRS of course, one of whose patrolling drones will easily spot a hiker who is minus the tag and direct enforcement officers to the location. All in the name of Conservation, Elf'n'Safety and the Environment, obvs.

    I am doing my best to schedule my demise to coincide with these hideous developments, using alcohol as an accelerant.

    Happy New Year - whoever you are!
  7. Charlie83

    Charlie83 Ultralighter

    I just read it (very loosely I may add) as

    We want to make more cash from more people, let's make some noise
    JKM and cathyjc like this.
  8. Enzo

    Enzo Thru Hiker

    I think it's totally legitimate to look to see if there are non obvious barriers to participation, but it's fallacious to assume discrimination when that participation in not representative. Which is what Cathyjc said.
    dovidola likes this.
  9. Rog Tallbloke

    Rog Tallbloke Thru Hiker

    Happy New Year all. I said it on twitter and I'll say it again here:-

    "The head of the Lake District National Park Authority in Cumbria says the rugged landscape excludes too many people and must change to attract a more diverse mix of visitors."

    Easy one this.

    Sack the head of the Lake District National Park Authority.

    Taz38, Lempo and Robin like this.
  10. Balagan

    Balagan Thru Hiker

    Pulling words out of thin air sure can be satisfying... :rolleyes:
  11. Lempo

    Lempo Section Hiker

    I thought I do my part and am now sitting in a train heading back South. One fewer white middle class middle aged male now in Lake District. I also minimised the amount of walks in the wild due prior obligations. Hope this is ok.
    cathyjc likes this.
  12. Rog Tallbloke

    Rog Tallbloke Thru Hiker

    Well in amongst the many responses I got on twitter (and the 2,300+ 'likes') were are number of people entirely agreeing that the head of the Lake District National Park Authority needs sacking.

    It's not the rugged landscape that must change, it's the PC infested culture of quangos, local govt. and civil service that must change.
    Diddi, Lempo and Taz38 like this.
  13. gixer

    gixer Thru Hiker

    Did a little more digging into this, as i'm curious where the author got his data from

    Seems it was from a "Monitor of Engagement with the Natural Environment" report

    Digging further their data collection seems fundamentally flawed
    If you go to "Data collection" on page 11


    Their data collection seems a bit "weird"
    The summation as i understand it is they aked the general populations rather than monitoring people using the outdoors at the time
    Very weird
  14. Craig

    Craig Backpacker

    This follows on from the LDNPs concerns earlier last year about improving access for folks from less well off white communities living in towns on the fringes of the park, many of whom rarely visit.
    If the planning groups were seriously interested in increasing access and diversity they would increase access, opportunities and the range of activities on offer. Such developments can be done sensitively without detracting from the existing amenity and landscape value.
    A few suggestions for starters.
    1. Improve parking & stop private landowners closing car parks.
    2. Allow a few zip wires in existing industrial mountain landscapes & forests
    3. Provide more cycle paths.

    The number of foreign visitors is increasing for some activities e.g Lake Cruises. Some of these visitors are venturing onto the Fells.

    "Figures released by Windermere Lake Cruises to coincide with Chinese New Year show a 286% increase in people from China using the business since June 2016" Feb 2019
  15. Rog Tallbloke

    Rog Tallbloke Thru Hiker

    My city council turned the disused railway line behind my house into a tarmacced cycle path. There are almost no cyclists using it, but nearly all the many birds that nested in the bordering trees have gone.
  16. Craig

    Craig Backpacker

    There's the very issue Rog, most of us don't like change. But wouldn't it be easy to offset the wildlife impact of any cycle route in the Lakes? Plant a few more copses along the way.
  17. Rog Tallbloke

    Rog Tallbloke Thru Hiker

    Isn't the whole point of mountain bike tyres that you don't need tarmac to use them?
  18. dovidola

    dovidola Thru Hiker

    Succinctly put. 'Post-Woke' thinking? - or just bleedin' obvious.
  19. dovidola

    dovidola Thru Hiker

    I believe so. But providing the odd bit of tarmac might keep more of them off the nice (walky) areas?
  20. cathyjc

    cathyjc Thru Hiker

    Not everybody has or wants to have a mountain bike. Me for one.
    OnOne Jockey likes this.
  21. Rog Tallbloke

    Rog Tallbloke Thru Hiker

    Fine, but do you want the mountains tarmacced so you can ride your non-mountain bike round them?
  22. cathyjc

    cathyjc Thru Hiker

    Of course not. The only sensible place to tarmac is the low lying flat bits. No one (sensible) is going to try taking a "non-mountain" bike up the fells.
    It does concern me that laying tarmac has somehow stopped the birds nesting ?
    If the bushes/trees are still there why have they gone ?
    or did the tarmacing involve cutting back the bushes ?
    In which case don't cut back ?
    OnOne Jockey and Enzo like this.
  23. Enzo

    Enzo Thru Hiker

    I think much of the negative identity based thinking like this is an import from the States where their history is very different as is their current situation. In the states if your an African American 17 boy your more likely to be in jail than 6 form college. In the UK BAME people are actually over represented at university. BAME is obviously too wide a demographic and I'm certain that observation hides many different outcomes for different communities within BAME. The biggest factor may be working class white boys wholesale not going to uni.
    The discussion there seems totally toxic, with some groups on the progressive side advocating de facto segregation. The left there seems to be turning it's back on the liberal ideal of seeing everyone as individuals rather than representative of there group. Which is where you get the idea that rather than encouraging minorities to seek out the outdoors you should denigrate the majority as upholding an oppressive status quo.

    So goes the new years resolution to avoid politics... But the adding of 'sis' to woman I see as the same ploy. Liberalism implies personal freedoms which I think has wide support, but the intuition to find an oppressor seems too hard to resist. You might wonder what the motivation is.
    When you said weird I though you meant
    Taz38, Lempo and cathyjc like this.
  24. Rog Tallbloke

    Rog Tallbloke Thru Hiker

    And naturally enough, pedestrians will want to use them to get easy access to their chosen spot to ascend the hill. So now it's two lanes wide, because Elven Safety demands a car-door's width separation between cyclists and anything else. Plus modern galvanised steel gates or cattle grids at every field boundary. And the under-track infrastructure for drainage...
  25. Clare

    Clare Thru Hiker

    They do of course, serve everybody and have a duty to serve everybody and make sure that the benefit of tax that everyone pays is fairly distributed. Not so sure that is "PC" whatever that means.

    To be honest, tirades against this thing called "PC" usually read as tirades against equal opportunities for women, BAME etc and a longing to get back to the old days when a white man could expect his supper on the table. So it would be great if you could say what you do actually mean by "PC", if it's not that.
    WilliamC, OnOne Jockey, Baldy and 2 others like this.

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