Discussion in 'Kit Lists' started by SafetyThird, Jun 25, 2019.
Its a compass, it works, you can take bearings with it. Not sure what else you need
Compass; a small silva
Pillow; can't sleep without it
Big sleeping bag; I'm a cold sleeper
Mat...not found the holy grail yet, mine weighs too much at 620g but is comfy. Spending more money can reduce that a fair bit.
First Aid; a few dressings for blisters, basic painkillers, hayfever pills, mini swiss army knife, butterfly stitches.
Powerbank: 10000 ah? My phone is a vampire
Maps: printouts or sections
Socks; 2 spare
Wash kit: everything decanted into tiny containers
Stuffsacks: from ebay (cottage manufacturer) weighs 21g for small ones, I use several as I like to be organised.
Sleeping bag goes into a vango drybag along with all sleeping gear and clothes/things that need to stay dry.
Reading glasses x1 (poundshop)
Cookset; stormin setup + wildo cup + ti spoon + stainless plate (luxury?) + tiny deejo knife
Me neither. I’ve seen a lot of those cheaper compasses on my courses and they all end up back in people’s bags. The needles are often sluggish and they are are really only any good at orientation of the map. I’d not save weight by cutting up maps and the like.
Well its all personal choice, as with most things, isn't it. I have a lot of compasses and there is nothing wrong with the Decathlon model, perfectly finctional. I certainly wouldn't use one of those micro-compasses, such as the Suunto Clipper, to small and fiddly but I know some who do and are perfectly happy. Equally I cannot see the point of having an all singing, all dancing, fully functional sighting compass either. I have several, used over many years and quite honestly they just cost a lot and weigh a lot. If I was doing a navigation course, then maybe I would probably take a sighting compasses.
I occaisionally take a GPS, especially if I'm going to an unknown area but rarely turn it on.
Just packed. Got the base weight down to a little over 7kg with some trimming, plus the food. Water will add a bit towards the end of the day as I'm camping on the top of a tor.
The downside this morning is that I can't find the harness for Fraggle's panniers so I'm now carrying his gear too. According to my bathroom scales I'm at 8.5kg with some water to add. I think the scales aren't that accurate at low levels so need to find a proper set to weight the sack in future.
The upside is that it looks bloody glorious out there for the next couple of days
Report to follow when I get back, thanks for all the help and discussion. Coming from a much heavier backpacking system from years past, this is a really interesting journey to get the weight down. I think there'll be another iteration in a year or so along with a smaller, lighter pack. Also looking at trying out the Ali trailstar copy which, even with an inner would knock half a kilo off the current weight but it remains to be seen if I like using that.
Yes thank you @Padstowe I have and sorry, I beg to differ!
I'm not sure I follow your math either - an angle of 10deg extended from a starting point for 500m results in a distance from the 0deg baseline of 87m, nowhere near your claimed 150m.
I trust you achieve better accuracy with your compass use than you do with your trigonometry, because I make that an error of over 80%!
Bear in mind, a 10deg maximum error is a <3% maximum bearing error, and I'm allowing for a combination of all error, including wobbly hands, wobbly eyes, wobbly feet, circumventing obstructions, magnetic variation inaccuracies, thickness of printed lines on paper, etc etc. I'd call that quite realistic. I understand, and can share in, the joy of getting a navigational dead-reckoning exercise absolutely spot-on, but I don't see it as my primary objective.
As this is primarily (imo) a safety issue, and in a spirit of positivity and encouragement, how many degrees in navigational error would you accept as a maximum for sufficiently safe travel in UK hill country in poor visibility?
Nice. That's similar to mine, but with added feature which would save me having to use an improvised flat edge.
I'd say you've done well. 7kg may not be the ultralightest out there, but it's properly lightweight and you'll really feel the difference.
Silva are the no1 compass in the world for very well earnt reasons.
The weight isn't a consideration either.
My silva with elastic cord is 23g.
Price, under £23 if your savvy.
Why have something, less functional and less reliable?
I agree that Silva are good, maybe even No1, I have several. But why do you make the assumption that what I have is "less functional and less reliable". That's a very a sweeping statement!
I apologise if the written form seems to be intended to cause offence?
But a clean sweep it is
You've no magnifier, no roamer scales, no scales, no fast /accurate bearing overlay, not enough length to take longer, time and effort saving bearings on a map, no 5 year warranty.... No argument?
*edit.... Forgot one of the real gems.... Night aid via its excellent illumination retention...
Oh and you've no additional north south lines to help with an accurate placement on the map....
I'll put the brush away without banging it... A clean sweep it is
As I said I have several Silvas with all of that useless stuff on them, that I actually don't need but each to his/her own
Although I did try to ajust the math a little to fit (as it doesn't allow for a massive 10 deg error), its not my math. Bear in mind that if your angle in wide then your distance will always come up short as well as you are traveling on a wider angel you know like the diagonal cutting through a square from top left to bottom right hand corner will be half the distance more than one of the perimeter lines. (Am not going to even attempt to change that from 45 deg angle to 10 deg to find out how much you are short over what distance, but we all know its there)
If you have a problem with it, take it up with Eric Langmuir.
Mag var shouldn't be more than half a degree out if you have done your sums right.
All the rest of it seems different from your first answer, as there's no reference to eyes, feet & whatever but you state instead how you find +/- 10 deg is good enough & your compass is adequate to take bearings to that level, bit of a change of story now for some reason.
If you have problem going round obstacles maybe learning how to box would help that?
You also stated how you could relate your physical surroundings to the map which would help you aswell, am still wondering how you do that in poor visibility, I can't seem to see though the clag to see my surroundings. Can you please share in the spirit of positivity and encouragement how you manage to do this feat please?
Safe travel, as little out as possible, account for everything. No one is going to walk on 1 deg out, but 10 is way way way to much to even think about going out in bad weather. (look at pic above)
If you don't believe me, write a query to mountain rescue & ask them if they think that your first post, not this new one is considered safe travel as they are the people who go out & pick dead bodies off the hill from nav errors gone horrible wrong.
Sorry for the thread drift but anyone new to hiking could be reading this forum & believe 10 deg is safe to be out & end up a mountain rescue call out.
Out of my league, I generally walk paths and need to know turn left or right at a fork, for which a simple compass suffices. I did replace a simpler one with a Silva mind. Not used it yet as viewranger hasn't let me down since I've had it.
Turned the phone on to post this.
Been blowing a hoolie all day but managed to find a little patch of almost flat ground that’s mostly out of the wind. Nice evening for it.
You could paint a big L on your left toe box & a big R on your right toe box, so you can look down & see which way to turn. Often thought about doing something similar as am useless at which is which, same with east & west, for some reason I never seem to get North & South mixed up though
(am so glad nav works in degrees & not cardinal points )
edit: am just after doing me counterbalance forklift ticket there, I don't drive & almost failed with nerves as when reversing & to much over thinking I wanted to turn right & ended up going left a few times & vise versa. I got 36 penalty points outta a failing 40 in the practical )
Have a grand neet... That shelter looks like it can handle the openness
Looks lovely. Have a great night.
No change @Padstowe, I said +/-10deg and didn't move the goalposts! Just because I was visualising the total navigational picture and you weren't doesn't alter that. Perhaps you weren't to know - perhaps my terminology wasn't as precise as it could have been - perhaps I just didn't expect that kind of reaction. For clarity (as you've made an issue of it) this is what I wrote:
"It depends how accurate you are trying to be. I find +/- 10 deg is good enough (it wouldn't be if you were crossing an ocean or a desert), when coupled with observation of your physical surroundings and the ability to relate them to the map. The compass is a Silva, about the size of a 50p piece, and 14g (quite a large button I suppose), which is adequate to take bearings to that level of accuracy. I've not had the electronic mapping fail on me yet, and the admittedly minimal map and compass are there as backup, sufficient to enable safe navigation back to civilisation."
I think that's a reasonable way of saying that I'm satisfied the compass enables navigation to +/-10deg accuracy in the field. I daresay a fancier compass would enable me to get that down by a few degrees, but I wouldn't care to speculate how many.
Nothing wrong with your printed chart which is also addressing an additional question. You and I are measuring how far off your intended route an error of 10deg will put you - your diagram is also showing how that error can effect your estimation of distance travelled, which is another matter. Even so, it shows that an error of 4deg over a distance of 1000m is 70m either way (you can't walk both ways at once!), so 35m in the case of your 500m, which would translate to 87.5m for a 10deg error, just like I said. If you have a problem with that, I suggest you take it up with Eric Langmuir. Alternatively, you can simply calculate the third side of a triangle formed by the other two sides, each 500m long, having a 10deg angle between them, which is still just over 87m. If it's been too long since school, this online calculator may be of assistance:
I've yet to encounter less than about 25metres visibility (perhaps you have), and there are frequently features to relate to the map within that distance. Walls, tarns, steams, escarpments, recognised paths, slopes, all sorts. If we're talking about an extensive and relatively featureless area and seriously limiting/disorienting conditions (e.g.whiteout), my strategy if at all possible is to stay put until it abates sufficiently.
I'm reassured that you're realistic enough to acknowledge that 0deg accuracy isn't achievable - how about 5deg? ("as little as possible" is dodging the issue imo - there has to be an acceptable margin for error). Anyone can hide behind hyperbole-loaded rhetoric about death and disaster, but that's not for me - I'm afraid I've seen rather too much of the real thing.
To lighten the mood, here's a proper example I can relate first-hand:
0.5km south of Esk Hause, at the head of Upper Eskdale, a party of schoolchildren under adult supervision, heavy mist, quite cold, several youngsters shivering, day drawing in. Adult leader doesn't look confident. Q: Are you OK? A: Yes, fine - we're heading back down to Borrowdale Q: Actually you're heading down Eskdale, 180 deg off course A: Really? Q: Yes - have you got a compass? A: I'm sure we have, someone's got one in their rucksack.
That, my friend, is bad navigation, and far from an isolated example of its type. I'm thankful more people don't come to a sticky end. Tellingly, the BMC and MRTs observe that of those incidents where navigational error was judged to be at least a contributory factor (around 30%), it was generally basic inability to use map and compass (rather than less-than-perfect accuracy) which was to blame.
Anyway, I'd be grateful if that can be an end of it - by all means have the last word if you wish.
"which is adequate to take bearings to that level of accuracy" taking bearings you said not walking them, are you now telling me that you got confused between taking bearings & walking them or assumed taking bearings encompasses walking them aswell .
If you wish to fool yourself by all means go ahead, if you want to try & fool me by what is written in plain english & telling me you meant something else.
Then I'd also be grateful that this nonsense stops please
edit: for your own safety, try your way with your button compass only, no gps, make lets say 8 legs of varying length (always best to keep them under 800m imo, well not mine it was what I was taught) taking bearings from a map that will end at a peak & pass not to close to some tuff ground but not too far aswell, walk them, see how you get on. I don't need to know, it's not for me it's for you.
Oh, do it in good weather so you can see the danger you may get into before it happens.
(I've often been out in less than a metre vis, spent 2 days once like that, very weird sensation when I came down outta it.)
Re-edit: Yes my looking at the diagram & translating it was a total foook up, I can own that with no problem. I got the book some years back skipped through it, wasn't anything new in basic nav work in it for me but this discussion made me remember seeing that diagram so I got it out & produced something that I didn't take the time to understand before presenting it. My bad, I can say that I know you can go off & it adds up as you go along but that still doesn't change the fact that I produced something without understanding it.
On a few last notes in general to anyone as I forgot to say, just because the worse conditions someone has been out in has been with 25m vis, that doesn't mean anything, that 25m can turn to less than 1m without any thought to what you are used to. I've never read anywhere that tells you how to nav or train for these situations (doesn't mean it doesn't exist in a book, just I never seen one) anything i've read generally say take in your surroundings, but when you can't? I found that training with a proper orienteering compass held against the bottom of your breast plate, with your head only looking down not around & relating to what the ground says below your feet (counting major contour changes, am I on the right side of the slope to how my ankles are bent sideways? should my ankles be bent sideways at all? am i crossing streams/fences/walls? ) while walking on that bearing, not using forward attack points, is good training in good weather. Safe travels peeps, we don't train & practice for what we are used to, we do it for the times that we need it imo.
oh & pick good cut off points, sorry
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