Carnivore Diet and THRU-HIKING

Enzo said:

I think its def worth avoiding any meat from factory farms. But the life of a free range chicken or lamb is objectively better than their wild relatives.

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Yup if you don't know the provenance then lamb is the safest bet, they are nearly always finished on lowland grass, with supplementary feeding too.

Lamb is not economic to raise intensively, nor do the creatures respond well to it.

Free range chicken is better than its intensively raised counterpart, for sure, but on a big scale there can still be issues with genuine access to the outdoors..

I heard given a choice they stay indoors. Mine don't. Especially the white leghorns. Comedy moments with me chasing one down the path behind my house. It won
Amazingly I caught her a week later, impressed she could look after herself.

Enzo said:

I heard given a choice they stay indoors. Mine don't. Especially the white leghorns. Comedy moments with me chasing one down the path behind my house. It won
Amazingly I caught her a week later, impressed she could look after herself.

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They can be quite fast, and resourceful given the chance.

Some of the flock here are ultra-free range too - can be quite annoying when they start marauding crops.

Apparently on the bigger commercial units they do a slightly sneaky design with the doors, so that some chickens don't even realise that an 'outdoors' exists..

But then, i'm sure some do just prefer loafing indoors any-hows

Bit I heard involved the farmer shooing 1000 hens out of one door and watching them all come back in the other! They should get leghorns, no risk.
Everyone should have leghorns though!

Taz38 said:

I think (I have not studied this) that the reason many on a carnivore diet feel great is because they've cut out the real baddies of food (refined sugar etc).

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to further the unstudied speculation, it feels good to be part of an ideology or community with a cohesive set of rules (whether that’s being a vegan, a carnivore, a punk, religion, the LSD movement, thru-hiking...)
When people constantly challenge you, you double down on self-fulfilling prophecies of feeling healthier.
Strangely all radically different diets seem to claim to feel much healthier, cherry-pick studies to show they’re x% less likely to get y disease. The same arguments come from raw vegans, GF folks, etc etc. I’ve also met several vegans who said it has been very helpful for their autoimmune illnesses - the exact opposite of Beth’s experience.

But if it’s working for Beth, it helps her illness, then that’s great. Of course not all autoimmune diseases are the same.

Ive heard low/no carb diets can help with pcos, all to do with insulin levels apparently.
@oreocereus think you've hit my feelings on the subject on the head, I think there is a hierarchy thing in there too.
But with nutrition being an I'll understood black art its all up for grabs.

My sister has had crohns for many years, tried many different diets and meds. She eats most things (healthy) but has to be very careful with fatty/junk food. One of the things that has helped is seeing a chinese herbalist who made her a concoction to be drank as a tea, tasted aweful but she felt it helped, more than anything else she tried.

Enzo said:

Ive heard low/no carb diets can help with pcos, all to do with insulin levels apparently.
@oreocereus think you've hit my feelings on the subject on the head, I think there is a hierarchy thing in there too.
But with nutrition being an I'll understood black art its all up for grabs.

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Is it such a black art though?
Surely for the majority of us it's mostly good fresh food, in a reasonably unprocessed state, with a moderation of those things that wouldn't be found in abundance in our 'natural' environment eg refined sugar, and alcohol.

All the delicious and nutritious commonsense that your Italian grandmother could have passed on to you @Enzo

Of course there are medical conditions, such as diabetes that can be helped by adjusting diet more precisely, and if it works on an individual basis (even on a mind /body level) then go for it

I've come across plenty of the outer fringes of diet adaptation for moral, religious, alleged health benefits and so forth.

Each very much to their own, but if its not enjoyable, sustainable in the long term, or means you never get invited out to dinner, then is it such a good idea even to start ?

It's not easy being a Chlorophylliac Hiker you know

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmWMK6ilra4/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1olodr6i201ln

Taz38 said:

My sister has had crohns for many years, tried many different diets and meds. She eats most things (healthy) but has to be very careful with fatty/junk food. One of the things that has helped is seeing a chinese herbalist who made her a concoction to be drank as a tea, tasted aweful but she felt it helped, more than anything else she tried.

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I have Crohn's, by no means as bad as some but I have had a few operations over the years and seen more than my fair share of dieticians. Not one of the dieticians agreed on a 'safe' & 'workable' diet other than food replacement shakes which caused me more issues than it was worth.

I am very lucky in that I can eat most things and I love my meat. However I find that If I eat allot of meat in a short period of time it causes me issues, severe bloating and sometimes unbearable pain. Carrots boiled slowly until soft help massively with the bloating and to a small amount the pain too for me.

From my own experience, a balanced diet and avoiding foods that cause issues works for me.

Reference the tea... a good ceremonial matcha can help and can taste a bit rank

Dave Vaughan said:

I have Crohn's, by no means as bad as some but I have had a few operations over the years and seen more than my fair share of dieticians. Not one of the dieticians agreed on a 'safe' & 'workable' diet other than food replacement shakes which caused me more issues than it was worth.

I am very lucky in that I can eat most things and I love my meat. However I find that If I eat allot of meat in a short period of time it causes me issues, severe bloating and sometimes unbearable pain. Carrots boiled slowly until soft help massively with the bloating and to a small amount the pain too for me.

From my own experience, a balanced diet and avoiding foods that cause issues works for me.

Reference the tea... a good ceremonial matcha can help and can taste a bit rank

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Crivens Dave ..

If I'd known you were going to be boiling the carrots til soft...

@Dave Vaughan
Dave, bloating can be caused by how you eat as well as what you eat. Try not to eat a lot of anything in a short period of time. Always chew and keep your mouth closed.

My mum told me that.

Baldy said:

@Dave Vaughan
Dave, bloating can be caused by how you eat as well as what you eat. Try not to eat a lot of anything in a short period of time. Always chew and keep your mouth closed.

My mum told me that.

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I can go from a 34 to a 38 waist without eating anything within a few hours

Fair Weather Camper said:

Crivens Dave ..
If I'd known you were going to be boiling the carrots til soft...

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Dont worry this is a rare thing and I assure you that no carrots are harmed

Wholly agree with your ideas about grub fwc, but I think the jury is far from in. Remember when fat was the enemy? Meat is highly toxic? Anything but meat is bad for you?
Funniest thing I saw was when cured meats were linked to rectal cancer a few years ago. A little research showed the other group most prone to rectal cancers were vegans!
My Italian grandmothers cooking was OK.
My aunts? Out of this world.
My aunt Rosaria used to cook single handedly for 20 of us every day of August, minimum 3 courses plus fruit etc without ever breaking a sweat (in 40c ) or loosing her cool and the food was amazing.
Having run a kitchen, I think she's amazing, lost with that generation sadly.

Don't really understand this "diet" thing
No one seemed to talk much about it until the 80's, yet there wasn't anywhere near as many fat people pre-80's

Now with social media it seems to have taken off to a whole new level.

What i find really bewildering is that you have people on complete opposite ends of the "diet" spectrum (i.e, only veg through to only meat) that profess miracle cures and health benefits.
What few seem to mention is what they ate BEFORE they started their "pilgrimage"

If i ate McDonalds every day for a year then ate KFC for 3 months i'm sure i would feel better, doesn't mean eating only KFC is good for me though.

Probably not a surprise to anyone that knows me cause i'm a bit fat, but i've never been on a diet for even 1 day of my life.

I try to exercise to the point where i can balance my intake with calories burnt.
Sometimes life gets in the way of that (work being a 1 hour response with a 40min drive to get there) hence the "bit fat"

I eat pretty sensibly most the time, so don't see the point of starving myself for a few months to lose weight only to put it on again a few months later.

Each to their own though
The cynic in me always seems to find someone making money at the end of this "dieting" rainbow though
Be it someone after researching funding, selling a book, podcasting or supplements.

It's usually backed up by very intelligent and manipulative marketing
I've seen whenever there is a fad/fashion like say veganism some clever person tends to make a revelation that does the complete opposite.
People that then get miffed at the spouting of evangelical nonsense from said fashion then take a completely opposite view and adopting it for their own.

What really makes my laugh though is when people use "we used to eat ........ when we lived in caves/hunter gatherers"
What they fail to mention of course is that there wasn't much of a choice back then.

Just like mountaineers and hikers used what we consider very basic kit 100 years ago.
It's not like they were zen masters, they were using the best kit that was available to them then.

If people are adults then what they eat is 100% up to them.
I do wonder what the physiological consequences of "dieting" is though

People setting themselves unattainable goals as a way to challenge themselves seems like a good idea until after they've failed, then the pendulum usually swings to the opposite direction.

Maybe that's how we used to do it when we lived in caves, "feast or famine" so we trick ourselves physcologically into repeating it

I think it makes sense to eat what your population evolved to eat, evolutionary biology and all that.
But I think the stats show dieting doesn't work long term.

Enzo said:

Wholly agree with your ideas about grub fwc, but I think the jury is far from in. Remember when fat was the enemy? Meat is highly toxic? Anything but meat is bad for you?
Funniest thing I saw was when cured meats were linked to rectal cancer a few years ago. A little research showed the other group most prone to rectal cancers were vegans!
My Italian grandmothers cooking was OK.
My aunts? Out of this world.
My aunt Rosaria used to cook single handedly for 20 of us every day of August, minimum 3 courses plus fruit etc without ever breaking a sweat (in 40c ) or loosing her cool and the food was amazing.
Having run a kitchen, I think she's amazing, lost with that generation sadly.

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I think there are 2 problems with regards to the pendulum swinging between what is good or bad

1/ A LOT of research is funded by people, companies or organisations that want research to show a heavily influenced outcome
I.e, animal rights groups funding research to show how bad meat is for you

2/ Marketing then kicks into overdrive to magnify their "opinion" and belittle anything else

So we often have real non-influenced research watered down by funded research by marketing


Another thing that puts a huge spanner in the works with food research is we're all slightly different

When i go on holiday with my Mrs, 99% of the time we eat the same things, usually we eat out so the portions are the same, and we eat at the same times.
For the 20 years we've been together in these situations i've put on weight and my Mrs loses weight

This even though i'll often run or swim in the mornings so 100% certain exercise more
Whats even more baffling is i'm lugging 82kg to 90kg (depending on the year) around and my Mrs is only lugging 55kg

It makes absolutely zero sense, she most have a dramatically faster metabolism.
So if we were put into even a non-influenced research group we'd have dramatically different results

Enzo said:

Wholly agree with your ideas about grub fwc, but I think the jury is far from in. Remember when fat was the enemy? Meat is highly toxic? Anything but meat is bad for you?
Funniest thing I saw was when cured meats were linked to rectal cancer a few years ago. A little research showed the other group most prone to rectal cancers were vegans!
My Italian grandmothers cooking was OK.
My aunts? Out of this world.
My aunt Rosaria used to cook single handedly for 20 of us every day of August, minimum 3 courses plus fruit etc without ever breaking a sweat (in 40c ) or loosing her cool and the food was amazing.
Having run a kitchen, I think she's amazing, lost with that generation sadly.

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Yes I remember when fat was the enemy - and i totally ignored it i've always eaten plenty of butter, quality oil etc, and outside of pregnancy I've never been particularly 'wide' - the fact that i spend nearly all day, every day on my feet, working might have something to do with that too i guess ...

But I've tried to avoid too much sugar,or refined carbs - because they don't make me feel particularly well - there is even a theory that the 'cholesterol problem' was in part down to an excess of sugar in the diet, and hence the blood, which damaged the arterial walls, to which the cholestoral then clung to the furred up surfaces.

Corn was grown to an excess in America for a few years - then dumped on the market as syrup at below cost of production prices - its a great bulk filler for cheap food - everyone gets a taste for manufactured foods being excessively sweet - and in this country too with heavily subsidised sugar beet production - Voila! obesity and diabetes follows - I really don't get why it is all seen as such a mystery ..

I know you know fwc, but I found it interesting that grasses are one of the very few groups of plànts that don't rely on mycorrhizal relationships, so can be be grown almost exclusively on oil derived ammonium nitrate. 60% of the calories consumed by humans are from 3 species of grass. Let's us get away with trashing the soil for now.
@gixer some fascinating twins studies re diet.

I have reduced my sugar intake the last few years, I still lapse occasionally, working in a school doesn't help, but can now taste sugar in many things, also unless I'm physically working really hard, I don't actually like many sweet snacks anymore. Weaning my kids off sweets and fastfood (pocket money spending) we find difficult, everyone else eats it...

Some of my work mates are forever on diets and entertain me with explaining how the system of 'sins' and calory counting works, and how eating fruit or salad counteracts the consumption of junkfood (treats) these same people seem to have an issue with their weight, health and fitness.

Yes some people are making big money out of the diet thing, while for others it becomes a cult thing.

gixer said:

I think there are 2 problems with regards to the pendulum swinging between what is good or bad


1/ A LOT of research is funded by people, companies or organisations that want research to show a heavily influenced outcome

I.e, animal rights groups funding research to show how bad meat is for you

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Funded research is a problem, but do you have any sources on how many animal rights groups are funding studies with questionable results?

The meat and dairy industries are worth billions of dollars, activism isn’t. Activists don’t have the capital to invest disproportionately in questionable research, nor do they have profit margins to protect (ie less cynical reasons for bias).


I do find the vegan health argument frustrating though. Most vegans I know are doing it for ethics or environmental reasons - I personally was (and still my diet looks largely vegan, and most of the time it is less complicated to say “I am vegan” rather than “well I would consume xyz products from local farms where I trusted the process etc etc”).

Most vegans I know are also aware that a balanced diet is more easily achieved with the inclusion of animal products.


It’s not a health movement. There’s a vocal few framing it as such. I’d postulate they’re largely companies (and those influenced by the marketing spin) trying to cash in, and are realising the average member of the public is more likely to care about lowering their risk of heart disease than not contributing to animal suffering or environmental degradation. Overall it dilutes the message for those motivated by ethics, environmentalism and politics (again, this is really the core of veganism, even if I don’t exactly buy into it). It also makes it an easy target because the claims are at best hopeful and at worst misleading. There are health positives to removing animal products, but there’s no miracle diet choice.

gixer said:

Don't really understand this "diet" thing

No one seemed to talk much about it until the 80's, yet there wasn't anywhere near as many fat people pre-80's

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Make the people insecure and scared about their health and aesthetics and then you can sell them more stuff.


Combined with the face our cultures have become increasingly more consumptive, globalisation has made more unhealthy foods widely available (hard to get fat eating locally grown produce and milk, which my parents grew up on, without all the processed stuff we have now). We’ve gotten better at selling more. Less exercise (more cars, office jobs, availability to entertainment that numbs one sitting on the couch after work). Which might at least somewhat account for obesity rates.

Enzo said:

I know you know fwc, but I found it interesting that grasses are one of the very few groups of plànts that don't rely on mycorrhizal relationships, so can be be grown almost exclusively on oil derived ammonium nitrate. 60% of the calories consumed by humans are from 3 species of grass. Let's us get away with trashing the soil for now.
@gixer some fascinating twins studies re diet.

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Exactly.. Cheap for now, to grow whilst hydrocarbons are still relatively cheap and easy to access.
Easy to store, process and sell.
Until the soil runs out (60 years of topsoil left at current projections if we carry on with our industrialised farming model)
Then there cc gas emissions, land grabs from indigenous farmers, poor quality nutrition, but high calorie diets, etc etc..

Major cash cow for a few.. Disaster for planet and people..

Taz38 said:

I have reduced my sugar intake the last few years, I still lapse occasionally, working in a school doesn't help, but can now taste sugar in many things, also unless I'm physically working really hard, I don't actually like many sweet snacks anymore. Weaning my kids off sweets and fastfood (pocket money spending) we find difficult, everyone else eats it...

Some of my work mates are forever on diets and entertain me with explaining how the system of 'sins' and calory counting works, and how eating fruit or salad counteracts the consumption of junkfood (treats) these same people seem to have an issue with their weight, health and fitness.

Yes some people are making big money out of the diet thing, while for others it becomes a cult thing.

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I wouldn't beat yourself up over a few biscuits @Taz..and yes the endless diet treadmill.. A toxic mix of people being told how they should be - hint - whatever you are like - it'll never be good enough.. You must be stick thin - but also 'curvy'

Combined with massive profiteering from people's general insecurity about their appearance - hint - you look fine - just concentrate on being healthy in the long term
But that's not going to sell many diet books or plans is it ??
I spend quite a lot of time in class, getting people (women esp) to fully take up their own space, and to stop trying to shrink themselves down, to fit an 'acceptable' 'smaller scalef' model.. Lung capacity, and function is also improved that way

Perhaps off topic
But I feel that way about makeup. The message has to be, you are inadequate?
Most my vegan friends are very quick to point out vegan athletes, more a you still can perform than you will be healthier. Though many feel meat is highly toxic.

In the case of make-up it gets all the more complicated as it’s all entangled in the mess of a patriarchal power structures.

Indeed many vegans fall into the ‘x world champion in y sport is vegan.’ I think it’s also a trained response. Anyone who doesn’t eat an omnivorous diet is constantly questioned by folks who’ve often never paid much attention to their own nutrition but suddenly feel like experts when challenged by someone consciously making a different choice to them, so the defense often focussed on health, when perhaps it should be more well rounded. Personally I try to explain that my nutritional needs are taken care of, as far as I and the lab tests i had a couple of months ago can tell, it’s not overly complex, and as long as I can live this way in reasonable health xyz is more important to me. I also try to acknowledge and emphasise that there are many other ways to meet ones nutritional needs.
But it’s really exhausting doing this sometimes half a dozen times a day, so I understand how people end up making sweeping generalizations and drawing on spectacular examples in constantly having to defend their choices.

This would apply for someone on a carnivorous diet too, I assume - although that conversation might be more valid as the motive here seems to be primarily health. (Still on topic right?)

Enzo said:

@gixer some fascinating twins studies re diet.

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I was watching something about this (BBC i think)

Twins (around 60 years old, women)
1 had problems with her weight, they looked into diet and exercise but found the one with the problems was missing some stomach bacteria or something

oreocereus said:

Funded research is a problem, but do you have any sources on how many animal rights groups are funding studies with questionable results?

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MotoGP is starting, i'll look later